Innovative Leadership for the Modern Learner – Dr. Pam Eddinger

Speakers 

• Andrea Gonzalez — Trellis Strategies 
• Dr. Debra Chromy — President and CEO, Trellis Strategies 
• Dr. Pam Eddinger — President, Bunker Hill Community College 

Editor’s note: This transcript has been lightly formatted for readability. Speaker attribution is based on the conversational context of the source transcription. 

[00:00] Welcome and Introduction 

Andrea Gonzalez: Hi. Welcome. My name is Andrea Gonzalez with Trellis Strategies. Thank you for joining us today for another episode of our Trellis Strategies 360 Discussion Series. 

We’re grateful to have the expertise and wisdom of our panelist today, Dr. Pam Eddinger, President of Bunker Hill Community College. 

In this series, if you’ve been following along, we’re discussing innovative leadership for the modern learner. And we’re doing this by having one-on-one conversations with presidents and chancellors of postsecondary institutions. 

Our discussion will be led by our President and CEO, Dr. Debra Chromy, and all participant videos will be off. We encourage you to share questions or comments in the chat or in the Q&A, and we will respond at the end of our discussion. 

A recording of this video will be sent to everyone who registered. Even if they aren’t tuned in today, they’ll still get a chance to view it. 

And it looks like people have been filing in and we’re good to go. I’ll hand it over to you, Dr. Chromy. 

[01:16] Introducing Dr. Pam Eddinger 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Thank you, Andrea. I appreciate all the work you’ve done behind the scenes to pull this together, and I’m very pleased to be here. Thank you all for joining us today. 

As Andrea mentioned, I’m Debra Chromy, President and CEO at Trellis, and it is my distinct honor to have with us today Dr. Pam Eddinger, who is President of Bunker Hill Community College. 

For those who don’t know Pam, she is President of Bunker Hill Community College, one of 15 community colleges in Massachusetts. It’s the largest, serving 16,000 students. 

Prior to being at Bunker Hill Community College, Pam was at Moorpark College in Southern California. 

Dr. Eddinger’s service in the community college movement spans 30 years, with senior posts in academics, student affairs, communication, policy, and executive leadership. 

And you can Google about her, but I don’t want to spend a lot of time going through her bio. We’re going to talk about some of the things she’s doing, including a book that’s coming out soon, but I wanted to jump into the conversation. 

Thank you again, Pam, for joining us today. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Oh, I’m anticipating so much fun, Debra. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: I think we will have. I always have fun with these. 

So I want to start by asking you to talk a little bit about the student population at Bunker Hill Community College, where you’re located, because you’re an urban campus. Some of the folks that are on the call are folks from Texas and may not be as familiar with Bunker Hill Community College. 

[02:51] Who Does Bunker Hill Community College Serve? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Okay, so I would love to say to you that Bunker Hill is unique and exceptional. We may be exceptional, but we’re not unique. 

We are a midsize, urban, New England coastal community college. We are about a third traditional age. Two-thirds of our students are adults, and the average age is around 26. 

Three out of four of our students work, many of them full time, and three out of five are parents. 

We are drawing from at least five or six gateway cities. That’s where immigrants settle, and they are on the cusp of development. Our communities are diverse, from the center of Boston to the outlying towns. 

Seventy-seven percent of our students are living in the lowest two quintiles of income. But like a lot of our community colleges—almost all of our community colleges—once they credential with us, once they’re done with us, they usually rise two quintiles in income. 

So there’s a great deal of economic mobility. 

We have about, I would say, 700 international students from about 100 countries speaking 75 languages. So we’re incredibly diverse, probably one of the most diverse institutions in the continental United States. The rest of them are in Hawaii. 

So we are very much concerned about our connection to not only our students, but their families and the community. 

Things that happen here within the walls of the college have a really direct impact on both the economic mobility of the students, the workforce and regional economic development, and just the vibrancy of our communities. 

[04:56] Transportation and Connection to Boston 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Which is great. And the other thing I’ll share is that you’re on the subway system. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yes. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: So in Austin, we don’t have a subway system. So when we think about transportation issues, that is not completely solved, but in some ways solved by the fact that you’re easily accessible by public transit, right? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: It is. My office overlooks the plaza where the train comes out. So if you’re there for about an hour, there’s two or three waves of people who are just coming and going from the plaza. It is really fabulous. 

We’re on what we call the Orange Line. And along the Orange Line we have two community colleges. One is us, and the other one is our sister college, Roxbury Community College. They’re literally five stops down. 

So it is a really wonderful way. All of our students come within a 10-mile radius of the campus, and then when they graduate, they stay. 

So we’re the foundation of the workforce and really the foundation of a lot of the economic stability in the city. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: That’s great. You may not know this about me, but I actually took a summer course at Bunker Hill Community College. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Oh, you’re kidding. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yes. Spanish 101. Don’t test me on it, please. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Oh, my. Qué bueno. 

[06:17] Defining the Modern Learner 

Dr. Debra Chromy: But listening to your description of your student population, it aligns incredibly well with what we’ve started to coin the modern learner. 

We outlined that in our 2025 Student Financial Wellness Survey results. And I’m just going to share a couple of stats around that for folks, just for context for our conversation, because it aligns incredibly well with the population you talked about. 

About two-thirds of respondents in our survey reported working for pay while enrolled, with similar rates of student employment across both two- and four-year institutions. 

When asked what they wanted the world to know about being a college student, one learner responded that college is so expensive, and the price to live is so expensive, that a lot of college students have to actually work more than two jobs to scrape by. 

So that sounds a bit like your population as well. 

Almost all of those who self-identified as workers first, students second, work at least 20 hours per week, with almost six in 10 working at least 40 hours per week. 

Compared to those who identified as students first, those who prioritize their identity as a worker were much more likely to provide financial support to their family—either children, 31%; a spouse, 23%; or other family members. 

So it’s a very different population than we’re used to seeing. 

And the interesting thing—and I’d be curious if you see this as well—despite all of these financial concerns and barriers that this population of modern learners is living through, according to our survey, the majority of them feel that college is worth it. 

And they’re there because they do believe it is going to change their lives, especially from an economic mobility perspective. 

[08:14] Higher Education, Public Trust, and the Modern Learner 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: It’s interesting. There’s a lot of narrative going around saying, “Well, higher education has lost the public’s trust.” 

That’s because folks really do believe that the college student is still 17 to 21. They are still living in the suburbs—two parents, picket fence, a dog—and when they run out of money, they call home for mom and dad. 

That is a mythology for us. This student really doesn’t exist in my world. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: And if they do, they’re few and far between. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Right. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yeah. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: That’s right. It’s less than a third. 

And what you said about higher education still being trusted as an opportunity giver is absolutely true. 

A lot of our students—almost 70%, if not more—are first-generation college goers. But that’s always batched together with other characteristics. They are immigrants. They’re second-language speakers. They are not only first in their family, but sometimes the first in their generation in the United States going to college. 

And it is not only the mythology that they fight about whether they’re working or not. College is a luxury good for these students. 

When something happens, when something is disrupted, college is the first to go. That is the first layer that they shed. 

So we’ve become really conscious of that, I think, over the last 10 years. A lot of the services and the ethos that we’re developing are geared toward that student-centeredness. 

And then beyond that, the centeredness of their ecosystem—not ours, but theirs. 

[10:03] Designing Higher Education Around Modern Learners 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Increasingly, we are realizing that our higher education system, whether it be community colleges or otherwise, is not built for the modern learner—or the learner that you and I are describing. 

They’re probably going into the majority right now. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: They are. Our data shows that they are the majority, which is unfortunate because policies and programs and everything are set up for what’s traditional. 

Can you talk a little bit, Pam, about what you have done on your campus to really make the environment easier for this population to navigate? 

Those who have childcare issues or eldercare issues or are working multiple jobs—what have you been able to do to accommodate that population and make it easier, from a student-centric perspective, for them? 

[10:53] The Three-Legged Stool of College Access 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Right. So I always look at the ability to attend college or participate in postsecondary education as sitting on a three-legged stool, right? 

The first is always financial. You have that background as well, having been in the financial aid world. No matter what you say, unless you can pay for tuition and fees, and unless you can feed your family while you’re paying tuition and fees, you’re not going to come. 

So in Massachusetts, we’ve been lucky. We have joined the College Promise movement, really, in a way. Over 45 states in the Union now have some form of free community college, whether state or municipal or otherwise. 

Massachusetts has gone to free community college for all qualifying students. So if you apply for the Pell Grant, even if you only get $1 of the Pell Grant, everything else is taken care of. It’s backstopped. 

So that has made access a lot easier. 

The second is because our students are first-generation, and many of them are coming from a background where they’re not prepared. Under-preparedness is there. 

We put a lot of effort into things like tutoring, both in-class and external tutoring—tutoring that’s virtual so people can get to it in the middle of the night—and navigators and coaches. 

Because, folks, you need a map. I need them. 

So those are some of the student services pieces we put together. 

But the last piece is really cultural, and it’s really about the environment in which our students live. 

[12:41] Food Insecurity, Homelessness, and Wraparound Services 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: We did a survey about seven or eight years ago, when Sara Goldrick-Rab was still writing her book and establishing the Real College agenda. 

She came on campus, and the survey that we did was for homelessness and for food insecurity. 

Fifty-four percent of our students were food insecure. So over any 30-day period, they either are not eating enough, not eating the right thing, or not feeding their family. 

And 14% of our students are homeless. 

And when you’re homeless, you can’t cook. So it compounds the issue. 

So what we’ve done over the last 10 years is to realize that wraparound services are not just advisors and folks to help you navigate, or tutoring. 

It really is food, transportation, childcare. 

We have a federal CCAMPIS grant that allows us to support about 50 students for all of their childcare needs. And we have childcare vouchers, transportation discounts, and transportation—you know, that T that connects us, right? That’s part of it. 

But it is also the sensibility that this stress the student is under is one point in time, right? 

You are not poor and unable to support higher education because it’s in your genes. It is not. It’s one point in time. 

Once you get over that hump, you will be that nurse, you will be that fireman, you will be that accountant, you will be that scholar, right, who will be able to support your family. 

So we try to destigmatize the idea of wraparound service. 

We have a referral system at the college that everybody who works here, as well as some of the alums who are still hanging around, knows. 

The first thing you tell your student is: Where’s the library? Where’s the food pantry, right? What happens when your carburetor breaks down? 

Our foundation fundraises to do all of that work. 

And frankly, I think all the community colleges do that now—the emergency pieces. 

[14:50] Addressing Poverty at a Systemic Level 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: But one piece that we’re committed to is, no matter how hard you work, you cannot food-pantry your way out of poverty. You just can’t. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: That’s right. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: So we’ve been doing a lot of work on the policy level with our state government. 

So now there is actually a budget line in the state budget that addresses campus hunger. And there are other support systems that are coming into place. 

And I think that’s the longer-term solution, you know, plus education. 

We have as many work-study people as we can accommodate. 

[15:29] Why Basic Needs Matter for Learning 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yes. No, and that’s really important. And we’re going to talk more about some of the innovative things that you’re doing there. 

But, you know, I always go back to—even whether it’s K–12 or postsecondary higher ed—if you’re hungry, you can’t learn. 

If you’re hungry, you can’t concentrate. You can’t do so many other things. 

Or if you don’t know where you can put your head down at night, it makes it very difficult. 

So it’s a really important piece that needs to be addressed. 

And in our Student Financial Wellness Survey, we see a lot of that as well in terms of feedback. 

The other one I’ll ask you about is mental health issues. Certainly, it’s been there all along. But post-COVID and during COVID, it seems to have popped up a bit more. 

And it seems to me that that is another piece that is impacting the ability of the population to be able to persist, continue, and complete. 

[16:23] Responding to the Student Mental Health Crisis 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: So what we did during COVID is that we actually declared COVID not only a health emergency. We declared it here on campus, along with our surrounding cities, that this is a mental health emergency, particularly for our communities of Black and brown men. 

And we looked at the numbers, and it was very specific. 

And everybody else is struggling as well, right? So it’s a matter of degrees. 

So what I did was I called for the formation of a mental health commission on campus. 

And we had everybody who wanted to work on this come around the table. We had about 45 to 50 people, and there were three buckets of work under the commission. 

There was a bucket of work that had to do with teaching and learning, and how to get more information, and how to interact with students—both our staff and our faculty—with students in a trauma-informed way. 

And how to handle and refer mental health emergencies right in their own spaces. 

Then we had another group within that that worked with our staff who are serving the students who are having these difficult issues—on how to refer, what emergency signs to look for. 

And then the last piece is the establishment of a mental health center. 

Because we were—and we still are—a commuter school, we did not have a counseling center. 

And therefore, the only thing we could do was, you know, sort of stabilize and refer. 

We now have a full staff, and I think it’s made a great deal of difference, just relieving the stress of the students. 

So, yeah, you know, there are some things that came out of COVID that are innovations that we’re going to try to keep around. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Which is great. And I hope that’s true for all the institutions who have put things like that in place. That would be incredible. 

[18:42] Creating Better Transfer Pathways 

Dr. Debra Chromy: I know that Bunker Hill Community College has a unique way of dealing with the transfer issue that we face here in Texas. 

So, meaning here in Texas, if someone finishes community college, not all of their credits necessarily transfer to a four-year institution. 

But you have—and I don’t know if this is statewide or specific to Bunker Hill Community College—you have this dual acceptance model there. 

Can you talk about the impact that’s had on the ability for individuals, especially these modern learners, to continue on and get a four-year degree? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yeah, we’ve tried a couple of things, and some of it is beginning to spread. 

I have the distinct honor of serving both in Massachusetts and having served in California before that. When I was coming out of California, California was establishing a model that is a mandatory transfer model, where the four-year colleges and the two-year colleges came together and defined what is in the province of two-year education and what is in the province of four-year education. 

So the transfers are almost guaranteed. If you finish your associate degree here, you must be able to get into your major at the four-year college. 

We haven’t gotten that far here in Massachusetts, but we went in a different direction. 

One is what we call a bachelor’s completion program, where I have four-year colleges on my campus teaching the last two years here in the same classrooms my two-year students are occupying. 

One of the key transfer pieces, aside from not losing any credits, is really the mental connectedness of the student, right? 

You have a mother of four struggling to support a family and so on. She’s established her routine, and now you’re saying to her, “No, you need to do two transfers and go to UMass Boston,” right? 

The leakier that pipeline, for whatever reason—the more exit points, as you know—the more likely folks are to drop. 

So we’ve been doing this for close to 10 years now. The students graduate in the spring with us, and then in the fall they come back to the same place and they’re with the four-year teachers. 

That works. 

[21:08] Dual Admission With Four-Year Institutions 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: The dual admissions model—we have it with three of our public universities and at least one or two of our private four-year nonprofits—is that when students get accepted at Bunker Hill, they also get accepted into the four-year institution. 

What happens is that we agree on curriculum, so folks are not losing credit. It’s very specific. 

The students will get an ID from both colleges, so they’re living the life of a four-year existence. They are free to participate in all of the things that make belonging worthwhile at both places. 

And we actually have resident advisors from a four-year college on campus. 

So we’re acting as if this kind of divide doesn’t really exist. You just come and you do your thing, and you keep doing your thing until you’re done. 

We’ve done it for a couple of years, and it’s been working. We’re waiting for other folks to adopt it. 

We have a number of two-year colleges—community colleges—joining into this effort, and we’re all learning from one another. 

But it’s working. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Which is great. And I’m assuming you have data that demonstrates the persistence and graduation rates are better than they would be if you said, “Okay, now you’re on your own to go finish up.” 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yeah. The data set is a little—we’re trying to narrow down the joint admissions data—but the data set for four-year transfer is actually pretty good on the whole. 

The students who are transferring do as well, if not better, than native students. 

It’s a fact that folks don’t talk about very often, but I think it’s that drive that folks associate with more mature students or students who’ve been through it once, right? 

[23:16] Reengaging Some College, No Credential Learners 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yeah, I think you’re right. 

And you’re touching, when you said “more than once,” on a topic which is very near and dear to my heart, which is the population that has some college, no credential. 

We’ve hit the demographic cliff. There are fewer 18-year-olds, and there will be for a while, graduating high school. 

Good thing we have reframed to think more about the adult or the modern learner. 

In Texas, we have—I think there’s close to 40 million nationwide—and in Texas we have close to four million. I’m guessing you might be closer to a million in Massachusetts? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Seven hundred seventy thousand. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Seven hundred seventy thousand. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: That was three years ago. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yeah. So it’s that population that I think we need to encourage to come back, because we’re going to have a problem. 

We don’t have enough workers for the jobs today and beyond. 

And they are a perfect population because they tried it. My gut is—and we’ve done some research on this—the reason most people stop out is financial or life. Some life event happens, and then life goes on. 

So they need that encouragement to come back. 

And I’m going to tie this question together—so it’s a long question—with workforce needs. 

Being able to say to somebody, “You’re not just coming back to get a credential. You’re coming back to get a credential that’s going to equal a job where you are going to be better off than you are today.” 

That type of messaging. 

[24:51] The Impact of Free Community College 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yeah, it is. 

And I’m happy to report that one of the best things Massachusetts has ever done is to join the free community college movement, because it touches everything that you just talked about, right? 

It is really one leg of that three-legged stool. It’s opportunity cost. 

So we started free community college two years ago. I’ve had data from two different fall semesters, and combined I gained 1,900 students. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Wow. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: It’s like growing a little college on the side, right? 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yeah. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Because of free community college. 

And when we look into who these students are who are coming back, some of them are students who are now going directly from high school to college because they don’t have to stop off to work. 

But a good portion of the population are the 770,000 with some college and no degree. We really believe that. 

When Governor Healey and our Senate President, Karen Spilka, imagined this free community college piece, they did have the workforce in mind. 

This is as much an educational investment as it is, for them, a workforce development investment. 

So I have 1,900 more students, and we just had graduation. I had 300 more graduates. 

We had around 1,200 last year. We have 1,500 this year. We literally have more people walking across the stage. 

And it’s working, right? 

Dr. Debra Chromy: It is. 

[26:31] Managing Capacity as Enrollment Grows 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Nathan Grawe can scare the heck out of you when he starts quoting all of the demographic cliff stuff, but the National Student Clearinghouse has been so clear about where that research is. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: And we’re following the research. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yeah. And I do want to ask about the capacity issue. 

Do you have a number you can’t go past? Is there a number beyond which you can’t support? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: That’s a really good question. 

We don’t do it in the California model. We don’t say, “Don’t come. We don’t have any more money.” 

We say, “Keep coming, because we’re going to go to Capitol Hill and we’re going to ask for more money to support you,” which I think is a more reasonable model. 

The thing about free community college is that it supports the student because it’s their opportunity cost. 

We get a little bit of money in a pot we call the Success Fund, which is meant to grow capacity to serve more students. 

But the state budget—as with some of the fallout of the federal budget, and the federal budget is 30% of the state budget—state budgets are going to be lean for the next couple of years. 

So I’m looking at 1,900 more students and certainly not enough to serve them in a way that I want to. 

That doesn’t mean that we stop. 

We are trying to be more efficient while preserving that real one-on-one coaching. 

So we’re trying to get the system to work better so that we’re not doing paperwork; instead, we’re in front of students and doing that type of work. 

It is an issue because a lot of them figure, “Well, we gave you money for the students. You’re all set.” 

No, I’m not all set. 

The doors opened up. Just come on in. But we’re not going to turn students away. That would defeat everything that we’ve said that we wanted to do. 

So if they’re coming, we’re taking them in. 

[28:31] Guided Pathways and Work-Based Learning 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Can you also talk a little bit about the workforce part and employer partnerships—in particular, paid apprenticeships or internships? 

I think, if I’m remembering correctly, you’re doing something unique with that apprenticeship piece in terms of credit as well. Is that right? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yeah. I think a lot of this comes into the bucket of work-based learning. 

We decided about five or six years ago that we would follow the Guided Pathways framework. A lot of folks around the table probably know what that is. 

It has four pillars. 

You run a pathway program where you have meta-majors so students know how to sort themselves. That’s the first pillar. 

The second pillar is that everybody gets an orientation and everybody gets an advisor, so you have a navigator. 

The third pillar is student planning, which is harder, because we want every student to have a visible plan—not just something in your back pocket. 

And the fourth piece is that the research is bearing out that experiential learning and work-based learning are what get them in the door of the workplace, and students are much more attached. 

[29:41] Why Bunker Hill Requires Paid Internships 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: What we’ve done—and this was over a decade ago—we were asked to take up the community college version of a co-op program. 

We said that we would do it, but we wouldn’t do it for free. 

Students must be paid. 

Because for our population, I don’t dare tell an adult supporting their family, “Oh, quit your job. Go take up that four-month internship.” 

I can’t do it. It is an equity issue. 

So all of our internships are paid, and they are also paid a transportation stipend. 

[30:39] Degree Apprenticeships 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: We’re now moving into degree apprenticeships. 

The degree apprenticeship is really the old apprenticeship model, but we’re attaching college credit and a degree to it. 

So the student is working with the employer, they’re receiving their related technical instruction through the college, and they’re getting paid while they’re learning. 

At the end of that pathway, what we want is for that student to have both a job and a degree. 

That’s a double guarantee. 

The student can enter the workforce with experience, but they also have that academic credential. 

If they decide later that they want to continue to a bachelor’s degree or beyond, those credits are there. 

For the modern learner, that’s really important because we’re not asking them to choose between work and education. We’re trying to design something where the two happen together. 

[32:00] Connecting Education With Workforce Opportunity 

Dr. Debra Chromy: And that connection seems so important when we think about the population we’ve been talking about. 

If you’re already working, if you’re supporting a family, telling somebody to stop working so they can get experience isn’t realistic. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Exactly. 

And this is where employers become really important partners. 

We need employers who are willing to look at the learner differently and look at education differently. 

It’s not just, “Come to us when you’ve finished your degree.” It’s, “How can we be part of the learning process?” 

That’s where the apprenticeship model becomes really powerful. 

It gives the employer an opportunity to develop talent, and it gives the learner a direct connection between what they’re learning and what they’re going to do. 

[34:39] Building Stronger Employer Partnerships 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Community colleges are very good at being responsive to students. We’re learning how to be better partners with employers. 

And we need to be. 

The workforce is changing too quickly for colleges to sit by themselves and decide what students need to know. 

We have to be in conversation with employers. We have to understand what they’re seeing, what skills are changing, and what opportunities are developing. 

But employers also have to understand our students. 

They have to understand that these are working adults, parents, first-generation students and immigrants. They bring enormous strengths, but they may need a pathway into the workplace that looks different. 

[35:15] Artificial Intelligence and the Future of Work 

Dr. Debra Chromy: And we can’t talk about changing workforce needs without talking about AI. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Right. 

I want to balance those two because I think we need to cut the heck out of the hysteria with AI. 

It is technology. It is technology we developed. 

It is holding the whole of human information that we’ve developed as human beings. 

The differentiation between execution and judgment, I think, is where the next workforce is going to be. 

You’re not going to lose your job to AI. You’re going to lose your job to somebody who understands and can operate AI. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Exactly. Exactly. 

I use that same quote all the time. 

And I don’t know if you’ve heard the other quote: “AI is not cheating. AI is competing.” 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: That’s right. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: I agree with you. 

In fact, I just had a call with my team earlier today—all my employees—and there was a question about AI. 

I said it’s just another tool in the technology toolbox. It is not the be-all, end-all of everything, at least in the teaching and learning space that we’re dealing with here and in everyday work. 

There are larger philosophical and environmental impacts that we know are there, but do not bring that hysteria into what I need to do today. 

[37:33] Building AI Literacy Into Education 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: I’m very optimistic. 

One of the things that we’re trying to do here is that we realized that in the old days, when we were still learning Excel and Word and all of that, we incorporated computer literacy as one of the outcomes of an associate degree. 

I think, in the same way, there needs to be some baseline of students understanding the wherewithal and functions of AI across the pathways. 

But once you get to specific pathways, the STEM pathway folks use a different version or a different brand or a different edition of AI versus the folks in the humanities. 

The folks in STEM don’t want to hear about ChatGPT and Copilot. They’re going Claude or some other version that I can’t even tell the difference about. 

I think we need to be more specific. We need to be much more pointed, and it needs to be oriented and contextualized. 

But no, I am hopeful about AI. 

I’m not worried that students won’t know AI. I just want it to be more seamless. 

[38:42] Community Colleges and Lifelong Reskilling 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Right. 

And I guess I’m going back to the point. People wonder what’s going to happen to postsecondary education, especially with the demographic cliff and other issues. 

But I think there’s this whole other group, whether it’s some college, no credential or, as we talked about, people who are currently in the workforce. 

They’re now saying, “How many careers are you going to have in a lifetime?” 

It’s not one. You’re not going to go work for IBM and work there for 30 years anymore. 

This is always going to be changing. 

And I always think of community colleges as the place you can come back to to get an additional skill set or certification or whatever that might be. 

[39:17] Rethinking the Higher Education Ecosystem 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yeah. 

It’s interesting how I’ve come to understand higher ed over the years. 

In the very early models, you have Harvard on top. It’s like a stack of pancakes—the Harvard on top with the cherry and the community colleges on the bottom—because of that hierarchy and, basically, elitism in very many ways. 

But lately I’ve been saying to people, take that stack of pancakes and turn it on its side. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yeah. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Right? And that’s the ecosystem. 

Every piece has a place. 

I wouldn’t go to the community college if I want a doctorate in psychology, but then you wouldn’t go to get developmental education or retraining at Harvard either. 

So there is a mutual need that happens. 

[40:02] Higher Education Cannot Do It Alone 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: But what’s really important in the next step, I think—and I talk about this in the book—is that the higher education ecosystem cannot do it alone. 

We need the community-based organizations. 

We need the social safety net folks. 

We need to have business and industry. 

And when we say things like, “Oh, we’re going to do an internship, and that’s the experiential learning,” there’s got to be a less transactional kind of partnership with business and industry and employers. 

If we don’t do that, then it’s just get what you want and leave, right? There is no symbiosis. 

I think the most successful partnerships I’ve seen are public-private partnerships that build things, that create opportunities, and that stay in the community. 

Because ultimately the measure is not retention in the programs. It’s not even completion in the programs. 

To me, it’s: What do our students and our graduates bring in terms of economic and social uplift in the community? And how do those partnerships really transform communities? 

Dr. Debra Chromy: I agree. 

I’ve always said, if you raise up an individual, you raise up a family. You raise up a family, you raise up a community. 

It all works. 

[41:20] Beyond the College Walls 

Dr. Debra Chromy: I want to go back because you mentioned your book, but this is the first mention of your book. 

I’d love for you to share with the audience the title of the book, what it’s about, and when we can look forward to seeing it on bookshelves—or Amazon, or wherever. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yes. 

The title of the book is Beyond the College Walls: Partnerships and Community College Reform. 

There are three of us who edited the book: me and Richard Kazis, a gentleman who’s been in the field a long time, and Barbara McCarthy, one of my colleagues in the community college system here in Massachusetts. 

It has seven chapters and seven authors, and a bunch of essays from the field, from practitioners. 

So it was really a collection of thoughts. 

We see the book as not so much a recipe book. It’s a book that is a thought partner in how to think about what kind of more vibrant partnerships you need to have with the people surrounding your ecosystem, like employers. 

The thesis is that we can’t do it alone, and we cannot do that transactional thing where you say, “You give me two internships, and I’m going to vote for you tomorrow.” 

What we did was get researchers, historians, practitioners, think tanks, and folks who critique and think about the future of community colleges to come together and talk about how they want to think about that partnership. 

And also to think about what defines community for them and what defines student-centeredness. 

So when you put all of these together, it’s like sitting in the room with seven really opinionated people and a lot of folks who are doing the work already and having coffee. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: That sounds fabulous. I can’t wait. And that’s coming out this fall, right? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yeah. It’s coming out in October and is published by Harvard Education Press. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Great. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: I look forward to reactions. We’re hoping that this will help the field. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yeah, that’ll be great. I look forward to it as well. 

[43:26] Overcoming Resistance to Institutional Change 

Dr. Debra Chromy: I’m going to go back. 

You’ve talked an awful lot about changes that have taken place at Bunker Hill Community College and, over the last 10 years, how things have transitioned. 

Where, if any place, did you feel the most resistance to that change as you were going through that process? 

What were the barriers or the roadblocks, and how did you overcome them? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: The hardest piece of change management is actually convincing people who have been so dedicated all their lives within higher education institutions that they need a partner. 

“We can do it ourselves. We are independent. We’re autonomous institutions, and therefore we can do it.” 

Well, no, you can’t. 

You can’t create those factory jobs. You can’t create the jobs in the industries or build hospitals so you can house nurses. 

And because we have not really, truly exercised that muscle of building across to employers or building across to community-based organizations, that is really the hardest piece. 

I think a lot of that work falls to the presidents and the CEOs and the chancellors. 

I can say to you that about 80% of my time, if not more, is spent external to the college doing things that I’m doing with you now. 

Getting the word out there to the field, supporting think tanks and associations in changing the narrative, and doing a lot of community civic engagement building and leadership building. 

And I now make a really decent salesperson. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: You didn’t think you were going to put that on your résumé before? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: No. No, it’s not on my card either. 

[45:21] Telling the Community College Story 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: That really is what it is, right? 

I’m telling the story of why community colleges are an added benefit for your sector. 

And I’ve got a wonderful story to tell because my students tell the story for me most of the time. 

But we don’t exercise that muscle. 

It’s one of the reasons why, I think, there’s a mistaken perception that there’s no public trust for higher education institutions. 

Because we care, but we care sometimes at a very philosophical level when it’s looked at from the outside. 

It’s also one of the reasons why community colleges have been passed over in terms of funding and in terms of prestige for so long, because we are working in the field. 

Until somebody elevates that narrative about the changing environment of our students and the need to lift up communities, we’re nowhere in sight. 

But that’s changing. 

And I think it’s a good thing. 

[46:21] Challenging Traditional Ideas About College Credit 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yeah. No, that’s great to hear. 

It’s funny. My question came from thinking about your degree apprenticeships and the fact that someone is getting college credit for working. 

That is so outside the norm of what a college degree equals, right? Do you know what I’m saying? 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yeah. 

I mean, it’s some of the old mythology, right? “Those who can’t do, teach.” 

No. Right now, you really need to do and teach. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Exactly. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: And then you’ve got to pay them. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Exactly. Exactly. All of that. 

[46:54] What’s Next for Bunker Hill? 

Dr. Debra Chromy: I’m just checking on time. I do have a couple of questions I wanted to ask you. 

What’s next? 

What is next for Bunker Hill Community College, especially as we think about these modern learners and the challenges they face, and that they are the future of hopefully filling the gap that’s being left by the fact that people chose not to have children 18, 19 years ago or 20 years ago? 

Given that, what’s the next thing that you feel like, whether it’s Bunker Hill or community colleges in general, need to do to prepare and make sure we’re creating, as you said, a student-centric model for them to come back and succeed? 

[47:34] Expanding the Meaning of Learner-Centeredness 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: I think the student-centeredness, or the learner-centeredness, is already here. 

It’s how we orient that student-centeredness. 

It’s no longer just the student in your classroom—you center on that student. It’s got to be beyond that. 

And we do talk about that in the book. 

Now the student awareness has to be the student, the family, the generational impact, the cultural impact, and their place in a community, and then the safety net underneath the community. 

So when I go to that chamber meeting or go to that community gathering, it’s because we have a place. 

The goal there is no one has a conversation about education and higher education in Greater Boston without Bunker Hill at the table. 

That’s the goal. 

And that works in policy. 

Part of our work is grounded in the field of direct delivery. 

But the other part of my job is to make sure that Beacon Hill, my legislature, our senators, and our representatives understand what it means to have free community college—that that is a public good that’s going to extend to workforce development and community development. 

[49:03] Giving Community Colleges a National Voice 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Nationally, it is also similar. 

One of the reasons why I spend so much time outside of Bunker Hill is I realize if the national narrative doesn’t lift, none of us lift. 

So nationally as well, no conversation about education should happen without community colleges being in the mix. 

There’s a reason why I joined the American Council on Education. They’re primarily seen as four-year. 

No. You need community colleges in there. 

So there is a responsibility, I think, for community college leadership nationwide to get around those tables. 

We shouldn’t have separate tables. 

They are our tables. 

And we need to flip that stack of pancakes for all of us. 

I think we’ll be better off. 

[49:54] Is College Still Worth It? 

Dr. Debra Chromy: And, you know, I think about our survey and what you’ve shared about your population, which is the same when we think about the modern learner. 

They say it’s worth it because they see that as the path to economic mobility. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: That’s right. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: So you can read headlines that say, “Is college still worth it?” 

For a lot of people, they’re looking at the ROI, et cetera. 

But for, I think, the majority of the population, they’re looking at this as, “This is my way into the middle class and beyond.” 

That is still true for a big chunk of the folks who are going to college today. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Yeah. 

Folks say to me all the time, “Well, not everybody needs college.” 

And I would look at them and say, you’re allowed to define the definition of college differently—to say postsecondary education. 

But if you say, “No, not everybody needs to go,” is that your child or is it my child? 

Is the aspiration for your child so much higher that you don’t think mine needs to go to college or have training? 

I think that elitism is still there. 

And we really need to do a better job of saying that everybody needs a piece of this. 

[51:03] Postsecondary Education in a Technology-Driven World 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Well, and education—we have changed so much in the way we operate and how technology is just part of everything that we do. 

I pick up this phone and, you know, we absolutely need further education. 

You can call it college or whatever you want to call it. 

When you talk about a degree apprenticeship, somebody may not think of that as college, but it is. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Oh, it is. It absolutely is. 

I think we have changed so much in the last 100 years since community colleges were established. 

Community colleges have changed over time, right? 

We’re no longer junior colleges or secretarial colleges. 

Now it is truly a stepping stone. 

Or it can be an endpoint. 

But I think we really need to—if we’re going to restore public trust and really believe that all of our higher educational institutions are there for the public good—we cannot just look at the 3% of elite colleges and say, “Oh, we need to be kind of like that.” 

[52:10] Lifelong Learning and Nonlinear Career Paths 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Well, and I think the other thing we’re supportive of here at Trellis is that it’s not a linear path anymore. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: No. No, it is not. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: You don’t get out of high school—I mean, yes, there are people who do this—get out of high school, go to four years of college, go to the workforce, maybe go back and get a master’s, et cetera. 

It is much more like in and out. 

We call them on-ramps. We’ve had every name—off-ramps, on-ramps, all kinds of things. 

Since I was young, I’ve heard about lifelong learning. 

But I feel like lifelong learning today has just become more of the norm. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: It really has. 

And I don’t think you can survive anymore with one or two careers in your lifetime. 

The last count I heard, somebody said six. 

I’m like, “Okay, six sounds reasonable.” 

You have 65 years to work. That’s about a career for each decade. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: That’s about right. 

And depending on what AI does over here in the medical field, we might be saying 70 or 80. Who knows how long we’re going to be— 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: It’s an exciting world. 

We have so much to look forward to. 

It’s terrific. 

[53:15] Closing the Conversation 

Dr. Debra Chromy: I agree. 

Pam, I could talk to you forever. 

We’re going to have to get coffee. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: We’re going to get coffee at some point. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: But it’s 3:55 here, and I just want to check, Andrea, if there were any questions. We have a little bit of time from anybody in the audience. 

Andrea Gonzalez: I think you all covered it, and you just got at everything everyone was thinking about. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Oh my goodness. 

Wow. Well, I still have more questions for you, but we are out of time, so we’re going to have to save that for part two. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Save that for coffee. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: That’s right. For coffee. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: That’s right. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Yes, yes. Coffee with Pam. We could make that our own little podcast. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: Debra, that was so much fun. Thank you for inviting us. 

Dr. Debra Chromy: Thank you for sharing so much with us. I really appreciate it. 

Okay. Well, see you soon. 

Dr. Pam Eddinger: All right. Take care. Bye-bye. 

[End of webinar — 54:03]